i also had mixed reactions to the joke. on one hand, i somewhat chuckled because i thought about my knucklehead-ass friends laughing about it. on the other, it reveals a truth that you mentioned about the need 'to fit in' and how many use that n-word because of that sole purpose.
i was just saying how cats who use the word do so almost unnaturally under the influence of peer pressure. you know how kids like to curse because they think it makes them look cool? i'm sure we all were there at one point of time. but as you mature, you realize that using such language actually reflects a limited vocabulary.
the n-word in music and in the community is an extension of this pressure exploited. the joke, although coarse, reveals a reality among those who falsely try to define the word as a term of endearment.
the truth is simpler.
lack of identity. lack of expression.
Dame
· 2 years ago
I do agree with Whoopi in that i don't have any problems with the word ( i use it myself). It's just the intent in which you use it. But other than that, it wasn't a good joke at all. I don't think God would use that word, whether or not it's in a good term or bad.
Coming from the UK where my parents saw signs for accomodation stating that no niggers, no Irish and no dogs, to here people use this term willy nilly totally gets me irate.
Do blacks go around calling each other wog, coon, sambo or any of the other negative words? No. Then why is it acceptable to take on board a word that dehumanised our ancestors and try and make out it is the meaning that is important. That's bullshit.
With the extensive words available in our vernacular, we kid ourselves again by thinking it is acceptable. Then wonder why so many have problems making progress.
Know your history people, it will help to shape our future.
hinchey
· 2 years ago
I have to admit that I have not seen the show but have often been triggered into deeper thought on a subject by a comedian's critical eye and speech. According the post, she knew she was setting up a controversial and provactive statement. And I think there are a whole host of assumptions built into the joke. Not just that the wings may have been white but that the gender of the child is somehow important to the joke. I think if anything it shows an assumumption on the part of all involved that somehow degrading black men trumps the degradation of black women. Lastly, I think that Whoopi is making a point that may be lost in the joke itself. There was a time when just using the n-word was offensive and basically unheard of. But clearly, we as a society have evolved past such limitations. (read with sarcasm) Might there come a point when a joke like this could and would be uttered with no such controversy. Sadly, yes.
Danielle
· 2 years ago
Flipping chanels I had missed the joke originally, and reading it isn't quite the same as hearing her do it.
I would add that never have I seen Whoopi perform were there was not a connectivity between everything she did in a performance a subtle connection of subject matter and character which creates a depth of communication that, to me, just has to be absorbed and does not lend itself easily to 'snippits'. She talked about kid a fair amount in this show, in that context i think there is more here.
I would add as I recall Whoopi has a son I believe which is likely as anything else to be the source of the male/female dimension.
It remains that sometimes people mean something by what they say and how they say it, and sometimes it reveals something about their natural bent in thinking.
With the Imus controversy this week I have found it interesting that Al Sharpton is the only person I have heard consistently identify the comments as sexist and racist, as opposed to just racist or racist first and then sexist.
To me, I think the thing to remember is that even though people partake of priviledge (and many of us do irregardless of the color of our skin or the shape of our sex organs) and be lothe to give up the advantage. We often understand viscerally and actively use without allowing the construct to penetrate our consciousness. This happens to all of us in different contexts. This is not to minimize any 'ism' or any priviledge it is just to ackowledge the likelihood that most individuals on the other side of the equasion would not behave any better and in fact in different contexts often behave as badly, sometimes wallowing in it like some african american musicians do in blatant msyogeny.
I have encountered not a few black men who wanted their turn as a white guy, and who can blame them, i don't. I don't excuse them either. It doesn't mean that i have to play a subserviant role to give them their turn at bat as an oppressor.
Somewhere along the line we need to process that this is one of the things that humans do in groups, not all the time but often enough for it to be a part of our nature.
How many different genecides does there have to be before we realize that it is not the color of a person's skin or their religion or sex that inclines them this way it is a possibility of all of our make-up's. That is not to excuse it, just to note that it is not incomprehensible that someone experiences themselves as a 'good person' when they don't always have very good intent.
Heck it is plausible that even our good intent can be rooted in values such as wanting to be 'better at being good' than the other guy/girl.
For me, i have noted that i could spend a lifetime being willing to know just what i am up to as i interact with others. My guess is that each of us is the same in this.
Danielle
omi
· 2 years ago
this has always struck me as one of those pre/post integration things.
when we had hardly anything to do with "whitefolks" beyond going to work for them (vs. with them) and rarely, if ever, saw them when we went home, the n-word was one thing.
now it seems to be a situation where our surroundings have changed (e.g., hip hop let everyone know we've been calling each other n---a for yrs) and some of our habits did not.
personally, i've only used the word out of anger, usually when someone's acting an ass. i didn't grow up hearing it used "affectionately", and i generally consider it an insult, even from another blk person.
but that's just me. i have friends who grew up with the "term of endearment" deal, and continue to use it liberally, so, to each her own.
however, we do need to accept that we're not the only ones listening to us anymore.
Linda Roy
· 2 years ago
It's The Word according to Whoopi; not the World! If you had been watching Whoopi over the years you would know she speaks from her heart and soul. She doesn't speak about things to be fashionable or politically correct as a means of wanting others to like her. I've been a fan since day one and take her as is with all that comes with her. This has to be the most anal site I've ever seen!!!!
GIB
· 2 years ago
Interesting, Linda Roy. Thank you for noticing my bumble with the title. That I can correct. However, she posed the joke SPECIFICALLY for us to gauge how the use of the word makes us feel. Then I chose to discuss that amongst a community of thinkers and people affected by it. If that makes me anal so be it. We have a responsibility to do more than make people laugh and make money (though I am not saying those were her sole purposes). We have to consider how what we do and say affects our world and how it is a reflection of our own inner lives. In fact, let me rephrase that. I have to consider how what I do and say affects my world and how it is a reflection of my inner life. I guess my wish is that we all do a little more of that rather than choosing and aiming caustic words like "anal" rather than thoughtfully engaging dialogue.
Anthony
· 2 years ago
The final joke made me feel uneasy. I smirked and let out a "hmph!" But winced at the use of the n-word. The joke had one definite intent and that was the fact that there is still racial prejudice in the world and that it clearly is unnecessary. It was a way for those people who never have to face racism a peek at what it feels like. It's degrading , unruly , and inhumane.
Danielle
· 2 years ago
I didn't laugh either, but noticed that it was possible that there were a lot of possibilities in the joke.
I listened to this again last week, caught the whole thing this time. I am not black (and not young:)), but I like to consider myself a person that is willing to pay attention to how things related to this move through my given thought patterns. For me, what made more of a difference than anything in the context of black/white was the concept of privilege, it is, imo, deep and multi-faceted, and I can't tell you how many times I have thought i have understood it to only end up revisiting it again.
On the last joke I realized my impression was that in the joke god was black.... Another one of those 'my mind sliding around things, the only context for god that I was willing to wrap my mind around 'him' using that word was if he was black.
I have just terminated my employment with a group that is very much a 'boy's' club where they have incorporated a conservative black male into their executive team. Strangely this and the self serving activities of a white male sales guy managed to solidify the impossibility of a female executive working with them, they just couldn't hear me any more.
It is not 1970 anymore and I don't have to pound my head against that solidifying wall in this particular organization, so I and the other female senior manager have left.
Was interesting to see how the admission of a conservative black male seemed to give them permission to solidify their misogyny. This place is not a hotbed of opportunity for African Americans either.
Anyway, I listed to the Whoppi thing this week and was finally able to actually 'hear' more of what she was saying, it seemed my mind was sliding right past it. The message to me was profound for a caucasion in a our society. The most telling of this subject matter is how one's mind does slip around the heart of the issue, no matter how it impacts one. Actually found the parrot joke more jarring... the one that said 'you know'.
The message, imo, was very finely crafted. I have found this is not unusual with mature comics and would caution that it is very easy to miss the deepest messages, our minds do like to slide around to that which we have already thought.
There is a stark-ness to the quality of the message that is kind of amazing. I found myself thinking if I, who was willing to find myself avoiding thinking things was able to slide around the message so deftly perhaps she should be a bit more blatant so people could hear her more easily... then I thought about her craft and the perfecting of that craft and I think I get to the point where I am notice that there are many too many messages that we process that requires no work from the receiver.
At least, for me, and I could see how one coming at the communication from another view might find it equally profound. To me that is the essence of a finely crafted message.
All Comments
i also had mixed reactions to the joke. on one hand, i somewhat chuckled because i thought about my knucklehead-ass friends laughing about it. on the other, it reveals a truth that you mentioned about the need 'to fit in' and how many use that n-word because of that sole purpose.
i was just saying how cats who use the word do so almost unnaturally under the influence of peer pressure. you know how kids like to curse because they think it makes them look cool? i'm sure we all were there at one point of time. but as you mature, you realize that using such language actually reflects a limited vocabulary.
the n-word in music and in the community is an extension of this pressure exploited. the joke, although coarse, reveals a reality among those who falsely try to define the word as a term of endearment.
the truth is simpler.
lack of identity. lack of expression.
Coming from the UK where my parents saw signs for accomodation stating that no niggers, no Irish and no dogs, to here people use this term willy nilly totally gets me irate.
Do blacks go around calling each other wog, coon, sambo or any of the other negative words? No. Then why is it acceptable to take on board a word that dehumanised our ancestors and try and make out it is the meaning that is important. That's bullshit.
With the extensive words available in our vernacular, we kid ourselves again by thinking it is acceptable. Then wonder why so many have problems making progress.
Know your history people, it will help to shape our future.
Lastly, I think that Whoopi is making a point that may be lost in the joke itself. There was a time when just using the n-word was offensive and basically unheard of. But clearly, we as a society have evolved past such limitations. (read with sarcasm) Might there come a point when a joke like this could and would be uttered with no such controversy. Sadly, yes.
I would add that never have I seen Whoopi perform were there was not a connectivity between everything she did in a performance a subtle connection of subject matter and character which creates a depth of communication that, to me, just has to be absorbed and does not lend itself easily to 'snippits'. She talked about kid a fair amount in this show, in that context i think there is more here.
I would add as I recall Whoopi has a son I believe which is likely as anything else to be the source of the male/female dimension.
It remains that sometimes people mean something by what they say and how they say it, and sometimes it reveals something about their natural bent in thinking.
With the Imus controversy this week I have found it interesting that Al Sharpton is the only person I have heard consistently identify the comments as sexist and racist, as opposed to just racist or racist first and then sexist.
To me, I think the thing to remember is that even though people partake of priviledge (and many of us do irregardless of the color of our skin or the shape of our sex organs) and be lothe to give up the advantage. We often understand viscerally and actively use without allowing the construct to penetrate our consciousness. This happens to all of us in different contexts. This is not to minimize any 'ism' or any priviledge it is just to ackowledge the likelihood that most individuals on the other side of the equasion would not behave any better and in fact in different contexts often behave as badly, sometimes wallowing in it like some african american musicians do in blatant msyogeny.
I have encountered not a few black men who wanted their turn as a white guy, and who can blame them, i don't. I don't excuse them either. It doesn't mean that i have to play a subserviant role to give them their turn at bat as an oppressor.
Somewhere along the line we need to process that this is one of the things that humans do in groups, not all the time but often enough for it to be a part of our nature.
How many different genecides does there have to be before we realize that it is not the color of a person's skin or their religion or sex that inclines them this way it is a possibility of all of our make-up's. That is not to excuse it, just to note that it is not incomprehensible that someone experiences themselves as a 'good person' when they don't always have very good intent.
Heck it is plausible that even our good intent can be rooted in values such as wanting to be 'better at being good' than the other guy/girl.
For me, i have noted that i could spend a lifetime being willing to know just what i am up to as i interact with others. My guess is that each of us is the same in this.
Danielle
when we had hardly anything to do with "whitefolks" beyond going to work for them (vs. with them) and rarely, if ever, saw them when we went home, the n-word was one thing.
now it seems to be a situation where our surroundings have changed (e.g., hip hop let everyone know we've been calling each other n---a for yrs) and some of our habits did not.
personally, i've only used the word out of anger, usually when someone's acting an ass. i didn't grow up hearing it used "affectionately", and i generally consider it an insult, even from another blk person.
but that's just me. i have friends who grew up with the "term of endearment" deal, and continue to use it liberally, so, to each her own.
however, we do need to accept that we're not the only ones listening to us anymore.
I listened to this again last week, caught the whole thing this time. I am not black (and not young:)), but I like to consider myself a person that is willing to pay attention to how things related to this move through my given thought patterns. For me, what made more of a difference than anything in the context of black/white was the concept of privilege, it is, imo, deep and multi-faceted, and I can't tell you how many times I have thought i have understood it to only end up revisiting it again.
On the last joke I realized my impression was that in the joke god was black.... Another one of those 'my mind sliding around things, the only context for god that I was willing to wrap my mind around 'him' using that word was if he was black.
I have just terminated my employment with a group that is very much a 'boy's' club where they have incorporated a conservative black male into their executive team. Strangely this and the self serving activities of a white male sales guy managed to solidify the impossibility of a female executive working with them, they just couldn't hear me any more.
It is not 1970 anymore and I don't have to pound my head against that solidifying wall in this particular organization, so I and the other female senior manager have left.
Was interesting to see how the admission of a conservative black male seemed to give them permission to solidify their misogyny. This place is not a hotbed of opportunity for African Americans either.
Anyway, I listed to the Whoppi thing this week and was finally able to actually 'hear' more of what she was saying, it seemed my mind was sliding right past it. The message to me was profound for a caucasion in a our society. The most telling of this subject matter is how one's mind does slip around the heart of the issue, no matter how it impacts one. Actually found the parrot joke more jarring... the one that said 'you know'.
The message, imo, was very finely crafted. I have found this is not unusual with mature comics and would caution that it is very easy to miss the deepest messages, our minds do like to slide around to that which we have already thought.
There is a stark-ness to the quality of the message that is kind of amazing. I found myself thinking if I, who was willing to find myself avoiding thinking things was able to slide around the message so deftly perhaps she should be a bit more blatant so people could hear her more easily... then I thought about her craft and the perfecting of that craft and I think I get to the point where I am notice that there are many too many messages that we process that requires no work from the receiver.
At least, for me, and I could see how one coming at the communication from another view might find it equally profound. To me that is the essence of a finely crafted message.
Sincerely,
Danielle